The most important person in the campaign is the candidate. The second most important is the campaign manager. For the duration of the campaign, your campaign manager will be your right-hand-man, or woman, so you need to make sure you choose the right campaign manager to win your campaign. Whether you are looking to hire a campaign manager or are looking to be a campaign manager, this is a must listen!
When you run for office, you need to surround yourself with people you trust and people who believe in you. Choosing a campaign manager is one of the most important decisions you will make. You may have a plethora of campaign managers waiting to work with you, or you may only have a few friends or family members to choose from. This decision is going to be tough, and so this week, Joe and Martín chat about what to look for in a campaign manager and how to find the right one for your campaign. Martín is joined by Brandon Davis, Principal at GPSImpact, and former Chief of Staff at the DNC to share with you what he thinks you need to look for in a campaign manager. Brandon has managed eight campaigns and has worked on over twenty, so he knows a thing or two about hiring campaign managers.
Resources
How Do I Find a Campaign Manager Blog Post
Creating a Campaign Manager Contract
Job Boards for Political and Campaign Jobs
Connect with us!
If you have campaign questions or want to learn more, reach out to us using the contact information below.
Twitter: @cmpwrkshp
Instagram: @TheCampaignWorkshop
Email: marketing@thecampaignworkshop.com
Joe Fuld
Twitter: @joefuld
Instagram: @joefuld
Martín Diego Garcia
Twitter: @gmartindiego
Instagram: @gmartindiego
Presented by The Campaign Workshop
(Intro Music)
Joe Fuld (00:05):
Hey friends, you're listening to how to win a campaign where you'll get an insider's perspective that teaches you not only how to run, but how to win. I'm Joe Fuld.
Martín Diego Garcia (00:16):
And I'm Martín Diego Garcia and you can find us @CMPWRKSHP on Twitter or @thecampaign workshop on Instagram. Welcome and thanks for tuning in again to this episode of How to Win a Campaign.
Joe Fuld (00:28):
If you tuned into our last episode, you explored the wonderful complicated world of digital strategy with Lizzie Kendrick. Right? If you haven't yet, make sure you take a listen.
Martín Diego Garcia (00:41):
Yeah, definitely. It was a really great episode, in this episode we're going to be jumping into what hiring a good campaign manager looks like. I mean we're chatting with a really good friend of ours, Brandon Davis, later on in the episode to sort of explore his experience both as a campaign manager and somebody who has hired a number of campaign managers. He is a principal over at GPS Impact and currently an advisor for the House Majority PAC and it has a slew of experience we're excited to dive into.
Joe Fuld (01:07):
You know what I'll say is that hiring the right campaign manager, you know, it's, it's probably one of the more important decisions a candidate can make. It's really understanding how a candidate is going to balance and run their life for the next six months, year, two years. And that's a big deal through, you know, to have that person who's going to be a sounding board and is going to be there day in, day out is, is really important. And there's a big difference between hiring consultants like us and hiring a campaign manager.
Martín Diego Garcia (01:37):
No. Agreed. And so Joe, I know you have been in your past lives a campaign manager and we often advise our clients on what they should be looking for when they're hiring a campaign manager. But how did you decide which candidates or campaigns you were going to work on?
Joe Fuld (01:53):
Back in the day when I was running campaigns and literally living out of my car with a couple of suitcases, it was word of mouth. Me calling people that I knew, calling consultants, calling people at different committees, trying to get an understanding of what was going to be a good campaign, what had people on the campaign already that I felt like would listen to me that I felt like the candidate was the right kind of candidate. So I would go through a whole bunch of sort of evaluations. I also would really look at, was I going to be paid. I know that might seem like a small thing, but like you know, making sure that you know, the campaign was going to be a professionally run campaign and that they were going to treat me well mattered a great deal and really understanding that part of the political business, that it is a business if you're going and being a political professional and packing up your car and moving someplace that you want to have the right people, the right resources, and have the right challenge, right? Making sure that candidate's actually done personal assessment like we talked about in episode one, that they're really to being a candidate like we talked about in episode two. Right? So all of those things really matter.
Martín Diego Garcia (03:06):
Yeah, totally agree. And I mean in the interview process, it's definitely a two way street, right? So the candidate is sort of feeling out, the campaign managers that are applying, but the campaign managers are also filling up the candidates to make sure they are also a right fit. And we often train our candidates to really think about sort of what are their, their must haves in a campaign manager. And so what are some of the nice to haves in a campaign manager? Yes, we would like to find that campaign unicorn who has the experience in your particular town or area or district who has run and understands your district and your and your constituents inside and out. But, but oftentimes what candidates really need is, is somebody who compliments their leadership style. So do they need somebody that is super organized or somebody that is a people person or somebody that is super data-driven. So depending on what their strengths are, they can find somebody who sort of, who can compliment them there.
Joe Fuld (03:57):
Right. I think really understanding is this going to be a campaign where free press is going to be play, an important role and does the manager have those skills or is it like every campaign going to be a campaign where fundraising really matters and is the campaign manager a good fundraiser? Right. I think, you know, contrary to popular belief campaigns don't have unlimited amount of resources. And so knowing the temperament and the skills that the manager has, we all have gone through different types of training. Some people are more field-based, some people more fundraising based, some people more communications based. So understanding that and really having that broad view of what are those skills that you need in a manager are super important.
Martín Diego Garcia (04:42):
In the campaigns that I know that you have worked on and advised on over the years, what are some good places to look when candidates are trying to find a campaign manager?
Joe Fuld (04:51):
Well, so first of all, I mean we have a list of job boards that are up on the site that are places where managers can actually look for jobs. But also candidates can list, put up job listings, but there's a lot, there's jobs that are left by democratic gain. There's even like paid sites like Tom Manatos and other sites that you can put listings on. There's a ton out there, so take a look, we're going to put this listing in the show notes. It has about 20 different resources of places that you can list jobs as well as look for jobs. And so we hope that'll be helpful. But from from my perspective, it is really calling people you know, that networking part of this beyond just looking at listservs, whether you are a candidate or whether you are a campaign manager or a staff person looking for work, making sure you're really using your network, asking people who could you talk to about jobs, where, what are States that you want to work in? Same thing as a man, as a candidate, right? Thinking about, Hey, if there's someone that is not from my state, what are other good States that are nearby that might have similar makeup and might have some talent that I could bring over to help me?
Martín Diego Garcia (06:12):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, particularly if you're running in an odd year or an even year or a presidential year, right? Or if you're a a battleground state, right? The, depending on the year you are running in, there may be more or less talent in the, in the talent pool. So you may have to sort of think outside the box in terms of is there another parent on the PTA with you or a neighborhood that you know, who is a retiree who just is really understands politics in your city or your town. So really sort of thinking outside the box there when you're trying to pick that up.
Joe Fuld (06:43):
Yeah. I mean I also want to say like thinking about diversity is so important. Thinking about keeping a broad and open mind. I think, you know, like I once got turned down for a race for a Attorney General's race because I wasn't an attorney, right? As a manager, you don't need an attorney to run a campaign for attorney general. You need someone who's a good campaign manager. Right? Again, same thing goes for like college degrees. I would rather hire someone who has been a McDonald's manager and has managed people than someone necessarily who has a four year college degree. So I, I think you have to look at the skills that the person you're hiring brings to the table. Don't have a narrow view. I mean we're right now in a part of our economy where, you know, finding political operatives is going to be hard this year because of the presidential because there are so many exciting races out there and I think having a broad open mind, you want to make sure you don't overlook the best talent.
Martín Diego Garcia (07:49):
Yeah. And so this brings us really to the hiring process and I think our first and most important role is to have one. And I know that they're there or at least have some sort of structure on how you plan to get the word out. How do you plan to interview your candidates and ultimately make your decisions. If you need to go back to episode four, we have an interview with Claire Stein Ross, who really sort of dives into the hiring process there. But what do you think folks need to include in a job description when they're thinking about hiring a campaign manager?
Joe Fuld (08:18):
I mean, again, thinking about the strengths that you might not have that you're looking for someone putting that in there, like detailed, organized fundraising is the core of what they're doing at the beginning and you're not going to have a fundraiser read that as the likely thing that you're going to need. Putting those details in there really matters. I would explain as much as you can in a job description. So little is left to chance, like what is the compensation going to be like? What is, when is that going to be paid? And again, I would be able to move that language straight from the job description into a campaign manager contract that we also have, you know, suggestions on how to do that on our website. So I think you want to make sure that there is a process for going from that job description in there. I think it's core traits that you're looking for, skills and then values and what are those that you're looking for.
Martín Diego Garcia (09:13):
Yeah, absolutely. And I think even when you get into the interviewing process, thinking about including some values based questions, right? Do they align with you on your shared values? Do you value equality, right on particular issues. What are those issues that you think are going to be the main ones that are we going to be coming up in the race? Do they have experience with those issues? I feel like a lot of those pieces can be sort of sifted out through the interview process and I know that we have a blog on our website that talks through sort of a templated interview process that you may be able to sort of pull ideas from and we'll make sure to include that in the episode description. So feel free to check that out as well.
Joe Fuld (09:49):
Yeah, and I'll also say grit, right? To me is like the most important thing that Angela Duckworth book and there's a great podcast on the David Chang podcast, one of my favorite podcasts out there where they did an interview with each other about, grit, I think it's fantastic. Check that out. But finding a campaign manager with grit and thinking about how you assess that is really important. So Martín, tell me what this interview was like. I mean, Brandon's awesome. Is there a highlight or do we just go right into it? What was your favorite part?
Martín Diego Garcia (10:20):
I think we'll just go right into it, but he had a re a lot of really, really great sort of nuggets of knowledge and tips and tricks on both hiring campaign managers as well as sort of his experience in being one and his experience really in making a career in this political, crazy political chaotic space. So I'm sure the listeners are going to get a lot out of it, so make sure you stay tuned and we'll be right back.
(Music)
Martín Diego Garcia (10:49):
Alright. And we're back and we are joined now by Brandon Davis. Thank you Brandon for being on the podcast.
Brandon Davis (10:55):
Great to be on with you.
Martín Diego Garcia (10:57):
So for those listeners who don't know, Brandon he's really done it all. He is currently the managing director at GPS impact, which is based in Washington, D.C. But he's been a senior advisor and he's been any, is currently a senior advisor for the house majority PAC. He's been a chief of staff. He has been a deputy campaign director or a political director. He's been on the board of a number of organizations including America Votes, the black and Latino Civic Engagement Funds via the Democracy Alliance. He held a leadership position at the Service Employees International Union for a number of years. So it really has run the gamut on making a political career here so we're excited to to get his insights on what it actually looks like and what you should be looking at when you're thinking about hiring a campaign manager. I'm sure you have come across your fair share of campaign managers along the way. Can you give us, just to the listeners know sort of a ballpark estimate of the amount of campaigns you've worked on or adjacent to?
Brandon Davis (11:56):
Well, I've managed somewhere around eight campaigns. And then in terms of how many campaigns I've worked on or been adjacent to that that's a, it's quite a few. It's been basically my, my career for the last 20 years and I can't remember a year that I took off. So it's been a pretty, it's been a pretty busy run and you know, upwards of 20 plus campaigns I'm sure. So it's, it's really run the gamut from electoral to advocacy, including ballot measures. But it's been a, it's been a good run and working at all levels of the ticket.
Martín Diego Garcia (12:26):
That's amazing. And so I would imagine you've been on sort of both sides of the hiring process in being hired as a campaign manager while also potentially hiring campaign managers for particular campaigns you've worked on.
Brandon Davis (12:37):
So I've had a chance to see a lot of different campaign managers, a lot of different styles of management and a lot of different candidates and their styles and how those styles mesh or don't with a potential campaign manager.
Martín Diego Garcia (12:49):
As you think back on those times, what are some sort of good things about campaign managers or some things to steer clear of, particularly as a candidate who may, who may have never sort of done this process before? What should they be looking out for?
Brandon Davis (13:02):
Well, I'm always a big proponent of trusting your gut. I think the relationship between a campaign manager and a and a candidate is a really important one. And I don't know that I've ever had two that were the same. And I think a lot of campaign managers would probably tell you that, that every relation, every campaign is different. Every candidate is different. And therefore probably every relationship with a candidate is a little bit different. But I do think you want to have a certain baseline of things. You want to have a level of trust, both trust this person's ability and their knowhow and their forthrightness and honesty. You also want to have a degree of trust as it relates to, you know, that person's willingness or ability to speak truth to, you know, the campaign staff as well as the leadership. And even the campaign of the candidate when necessary. You want the person, I think to be highly competent and capable. And I think you want somebody who appreciates the tense nature or the chaotic nature that campaigns can be and is thoughtful about how to build a culture around a campaign. Conversely, you know, I think there are some red flags, you know, I think that campaign managers have to manage multiple tasks. We often talk about walking gum and chewing at the same time. And you know, certainly we all have to be able to do that. But I think the task of management is more of a juggling uh dynamic. And frankly, things aren't going to always go well. Campaign managers have to do difficult jobs, have to make difficult decisions. So I think you, you want a campaign manager that is grounded. So when you come across people who you know aren't grounded or you know, don't have strong feelings and strong opinions, that always is a bit of a red flag to me because campaigns need leadership. You're hiring a campaign manager. And I think the campaign staff expects a certain level of leadership as it relates to direction. When I have a campaign manager that I'm interviewing or you know, or, or in a process like that and we've gone through a process, we've gone through maybe an interview and multiple people have been in the room and that person may come over to you afterwards and say, you know, here's the thing I didn't say in the room, but you know, I don't really work well with someone's or you know, I don't know if I can really engage with this person. That's a bit of a red flag because campaigns operate best when they are transparent, when tough things are done and done. You know, in broad daylight and everybody can understand it. And, and, and there's a level of transparency that lets everybody know that they're on the same team. So I, I think you're looking for people with honesty, transparency, abilities, but also folks who really value team and building a culture.
Martín Diego Garcia (15:47):
Yeah. I could not agree more. I mean, thinking about some of the campaigns I've been involved with, right. It was never good when the person in charge was, would want to avoid conflict versus sort of just saying it and laying on the floor campaigns happen so quickly and there's such high emotion and so tense and so stressful that obviously the conflicts and tensions are going to arise. And to have somebody who isn't willing to mediate or moderate a conversation so that we could move forward and continue to focus on winning the campaign. Should a candidate be looking for somebody who is just going to consistently agree with everything that they are doing?
Brandon Davis (16:19):
I won't say whether or not, I'm sure there are some folks who would value that. I think it sets the campaign and you know, off on a poor direction, campaigns operate in a fairly constant tension whether that's attention over resources or tension over, you know, over ways to adjust the strategy when when, when unforeseen things arise campaigns operate in a certain amount of tension. And so I, I think you want that to be a healthy tension. And the healthy tension is one where people can communicate and say what they, where they find agreement, where they find challenges, et cetera. But a good campaign manager and a good candidate are also capable of opening up that space for a conversation. But understanding that ultimately they have to make a bottom line set of decisions. And once all has been understood and adjudicated, they have to make that decision. And it may not be a decision that's popular with everyone, especially if it's, you know, if it is a decision that has to be made and there are options, but that is the job to, to take those inputs and make the best decision possible and, and deal with or maintain a healthy campaign. Even if there's fallout from those decisions.
Martín Diego Garcia (17:32):
We often tell folks in the training space, colleague of mine makes the joke around, we asked the room if you're on a football team, what role is the candidate? Somebody who's got a quarterback or they'll say the wide receiver. Or they'll say, they start naming everybody and we're like, no, you're the football. You literally give your life to these people, these humans who you're hiring on to basically schedule out your day in 15 minute increments. Right? And you're, and you're trusting them to do that. Right. So in terms of the like role and responsibilities of the campaign manager, what do you see as the role and responsibilities of the campaign? What should they be overseeing versus what the candidate should be responsible for?
Brandon Davis (18:12):
Well, every campaign is different. So I'll just add that caveat and as you well know and every candidate is a little different, but but I think that, you know, there are a set of things that only the candidate can do. And I'm a big believer in focusing on the thing that you uniquely can do. If someone else can do a job, then try to get them into that job. Typically, you know, certain things rise to a level of decision making or planning that only the manager or the, you know, or a deputized person or the campaign or the the candidate can make those decisions. We all know that finance is the lifeblood of political work. Rarely do campaign managers have the, you know, the, the mantle of being the primary fundraiser. Typically that is something that only the candidate can do. People are looking to understand the candidate and their platforms. They're looking to build relationships with the candidate. They're not looking necessarily to have those interactions with the campaign manager only. They may want to understand better the strategy or nuances. But really the purview of fundraising and engaging in the critical work of raising the resources do the campaign is really the job of the candidate. I also think it's important to recognize that, you know, if a candidate is operating at their highest level, their time is the most valuable thing, the most valuable commodity that you have. And so therefore, I don't think it's valuable when candidates have to reach, you know, below the level that they should be punching at to engage the campaign. You know, giving direction to staff down the line, working with junior members of the team or weighing in on minute details. Those are the things that you want the campaign manager to manage when they need to and to delegate effectively again, so that folks are owning the role that they can own and everyone else can move their work to a higher level. And so I think the campaign manager's job is to help to work with the candidates to define their space.
Martín Diego Garcia (20:12):
I find kind of candidates often find it helpful for them to sort of look in the mirror first to be like, what are the things I am good at? What are the things that I, I know that I can handle with myself versus needing somebody there to hold me accountable. So for me, if I was a candidate, my calendar, I am right, like I'm always late for things. I'm organization is not my strong suit. And so having somebody who can organize me and just make sure that I get to places on time and leave places when I need to be right. And once I'm there I can totally handle myself. It's sort of getting me there. That is probably be the issue that I need help with. So having somebody there who can compliment you and sort of help get to where you need to go.
Brandon Davis (20:48):
I think that's right. I think that's a choice point too, and, and you know, not to get too deep in the weeds on it, but you know, one of the choice points is you know, for, for campaigns is how the principal and the campaign manager engage. I've worked with candidates where, you know, we had a nightly call, we checked in every first thing in the morning. We had a nightly call to wrap up the day and that was about the extent of regularized communication. Surely there are rapid response things that come up that have to be dealt with. I've worked with other candidates who, you know, are regularly in contact with the campaign manager, sort of want to have that pipeline and they're checking, you know, the movements of the campaign and their own movements in the field and ensuring they're aligning with what the needs of the day are on a regularized, on a regularized way. I've worked with some candidates who really prefer the campaign manager to travel with them on, you know, with them on specific trips and to be a part of the fundraising effort of working with other camp with other candidates who, and they want somebody who's really going to, you know, anchor the campaign headquarters and ensure that the, you know, that that operation is moving seamlessly.
Martín Diego Garcia (22:00):
Now switching gears a little bit to talk about like the process of actually hiring a campaign manager. You've said on a, on a number of them are any advice for candidates who are looking to set up that process in terms of how they should be thinking about it, where they should be looking for folks, how much they should be paying campaign managers?
Brandon Davis (22:17):
Well, I believe in casting a wide net. I think as much as possible, you want to bring in and talk to, you know, a range of people and you know, that that can be time consuming. But I think it's incredibly valuable in terms of the, you know, identifying people. I always believe that, you know, both word of mouth and the experience of people that you trust you've had some good working relationship with and can validate a potential manager or somebody you can interview is really a good place to start. You know, I think that increasingly in this environment, while we want to tap into some of the traditional routes of, you know, of some of the online spaces and previous campaigns and friends and relationships, I think candidates, particularly candidates down ballot should be really open to taking a chance on someone new in the process. You know, I think that our campaigning is becoming more and more a marketing exercise and I think given that we should not be unwilling to look in non traditional spaces for campaign managers, again, particularly in races that, you know, offer you the opportunity to knock every door in a district or you know, aren't requiring you to to make a set of tough decisions about how you're going to allocate a television budget or a media plan or a media budget. I think we should be more excited about taking the opportunity to hire newer campaign managers, folks who haven't been in the space and couple them with good general consultants and and other support, kitchen cabinets, et cetera, to help bring out some new ways of thinking, particularly around communications and the digital space and the shifting landscape of how paid communications are operating in market.
Martín Diego Garcia (24:05):
Yeah, I mean agreed, particularly, I mean sometimes it's not even a choice, but especially, especially when you're, you're running in a presidential election, right, where a lot of the folks who may have experience in your area are, are moving up the, up the ballot to run to campaign manage for congressional races. Senate races even jump on a presidential election. So looking for these folks outside of, right, these traditional political spaces. It's actually really helpful. And I think you're right, having them coupled with a kitchen cabinet, which has sort of a group of folks that you surround yourself with who know the area, who may have been involved in some way or another and campaigns in your area or people that you trust in are, are confidants that you, that you can give you counsel coupling those two things together I think is a great idea.
Brandon Davis (24:47):
Sure. And we often don't take those chances. The, the, the last thing that I would just add here is that, you know, I, I think that we have often overlooked the value of cultural competence in in, in campaigning and in the choice of campaign managers. You know, one of the things that I think you want to do is, is to one, understand the landscape that you're engaging in. And, and I, I, I think that we don't recognize that all constituencies and groups and demographics and geographic locations have a culture. Oftentimes we sort of think of that largely through the lens of communities of color. Think of it often through the lens of gender. And that that is true and, and we should be thinking certainly that way. But you know, if you're running in a rural district and you choose a campaign manager that's never you know, never set foot on a corn, in a corn field or you know, never been in, in the pitch black darkness of a country night, that may be jolting. And there may be a little bit of a miss of understanding sort of what the culture of the electorate is, which you know, can be a real hindrance in trying to communicate with those folks. So I really think being thoughtful about how to get diversity of thought broadly defined in your campaign is really important. Campaign managers often set that tone, but campaign managers can also be the linchpin in, in where you have gaps and that should be a consideration.
Martín Diego Garcia (26:17):
And so as we talk about these folks who may or may not have sort of been in the campaign or political space before, do you have any advice for folks who are trying to make a career in the political space? I mean you, you have done it. I've done it.'I'm doing it right, we're both doing it. Advice to those folks.
Brandon Davis (26:33):
I think being in this environment, particularly we don't have to agree with folks, political views to be able to appreciate and understand and to understand them for me is to understand how in some cases to navigate them in some cases to persuade people. But I, I think, you know, we have to guard in this culture against too much group think and you know, finding ourselves in the Twitter sphere and convincing ourselves that that is, you know, that, that, that, that subset of relationships is representative of the country. So I think being, you know, sober and grounded really matters. And then I think having a set of rules, I have developed a set of rules over the years that I kind of govern myself by in campaigns. And that set of rules is what helps me kind of know if I'm still moving in the direction of true North, if I'm still, you know, if I'm still doing the work in ways that I think help move us forward. And, and, are part of what I originally imagined. So for me, you know, I operate with a set of, I think they're up to 17 now, 17 rules that I think are really important on campaigns. One of those rules is, is you have to decide where you're going to stand on a campaign. If you stand in the middle of the road, you're going to get run over, you have to choose, and you have to decide. You're going to fight for positions. It's okay to, to need to take a minute to, you know, take care of oneself and feed the soul and, and, and lean into the work in a way that is, you know, that that may take you a bit off task, but it's fulfilling. But know the difference. Don't conflate what feels good with what is strategic and might get us to a win. So I would say have yourself a set of rules, a set of things that you know, you can check your decisions by. Because these environments are very tough to figure out. They're very difficult. They are tumultuous. And if you're not grounded to something, it's very difficult to to not be swept up in that. And if you're swept up in it, you can't give a candidate the kind of good advice that they need. And you can't lead a team with a decisive kind of leadership that you need to.
Martín Diego Garcia (28:43):
That is some great advice. I'm gonna start writing some of my roles down to now. Now this whole process is a two way street, right? So as much as the candidate is interviewing the campaign manager, the campaign manager is doing the same, as you have worked on candidates campaigns, were there, were there any things that you did that helped you sort of decide whether or not you wanted to actually work for that candidate or not?
Brandon Davis (29:04):
I think when you're in these conversations, you're trying to get a feel for it. Presumably if you're on the campaign manager side of the table, you know, you wouldn't be in this conversation if this were not a candidate whose politics and policies aligned with you in a way that was compelling enough for you to go and work for that person. Conversely, if you're the candidate, you know if you, if you're sitting across and interviewing a campaign manager somewhere along the line, you think that that person has the chops and the skills to get the job done. And so I think a lot of what you're trying to figure out is can we work together? Can we be effective together or better yet? And we enhance one another's abilities and roles in a way that makes the campaign stronger. And so I think when you are, when you're having a conversation with a candidate, you want to know if that person is going to shoot you straight. Are they going to tell you the truth about what they think? I think you want to understand what the candidates vision is for the campaign. You know, this is, I think, critical and sometimes an overlooked step. I think we sort of particularly, you know, if, if you have a history of, you know, working for an in a particular state or working for a particular party or at a particular level, we make a set of assumptions going into these conversations. And I really think it's important to put your cards on the table to sort of say what are boundaries for you and what are the things that you have found are important for how you operate? And to test those and not be afraid for a job to not be a good fit. There is nothing, I think more dangerous than someone who's locked themselves into, you know, the, the clarity that they're going to go out and get this job period. Even if they see something to the contrary that leads them to believe that this may not be the best fit or they may not be the most successful here. When you see those things, listen to them, it matters. And so, you know, set yourself up, I think for success. And then, you know, I always share with campaign managers that, you know, I think that there are one or two things that you want to make an ask of a candidate that, you know, really matter. You know, I've had candidates, I've had campaign managers, you know, ask me, well, you know, how do you, you know, how do you get to a place where you communicate with the candidate better? Like, you know, should I, you know, make as part of this deal that, you know, I can only come here if I have unfettered access to the candidate. Well, there may be things like that that are really important to you in the work and you should put those on the table. Again, don't I, I don't think you can ever go into a conversation afraid to not walk away with the job, you know, if, if, if that's the case, then you know, be mindful and be careful because you're treading on dangerous, dangerous territory.
Martín Diego Garcia (31:55):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's super helpful. I think for folks who were both trying to hire, we're thinking about working on campaigns. Well. Thank you Brandon so much for your insights on this particular topic around hiring a campaign manager. And thank you for joining us.
Brandon Davis (32:08):
This was great. Thank you.
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Martín Diego Garcia (32:15):
And we're back. So thanks again to Brandon Davis for making the time to share his plethora of experience with the many of hats that he has worn in the campaign world. As we discussed, it's really, really important to take the time to figure out the process for hiring a campaign manager seriously. I mean, as a candidate, you're basically trusting this person to sort of run your life for the duration of the campaign.
Joe Fuld (32:37):
Yeah, and you also want to remember that the most important quality of a manager is their willingness to put the work in and there is a distinct difference between a campaign manager and a general consultant. You want to have a campaign manager and you don't need the oldest operative in the business, right? What you need is somebody who's going to put in the hours and who's really going to work to communicate with you and to learn. You need someone you can trust. When I started running political campaigns, I was 22 years old and I know that people think, Hey, should I really be hiring a 22 year old campaign manager? And the answer is yes. Right. You want somebody who really is going to work those 16, 18 hour days to get stuff done. You want to put smart people around your campaign manager, consultants, other people on the team, volunteers who can help. But you want someone that is really gonna put in the work.
Martín Diego Garcia (33:37):
Yeah and remember right your me, your manager doesn't necessarily have to be born and raised in the community you're running in right? But you do want to make sure that they do understand the type of community that they're going to be working in and the issues that really matter to them. I know Joe and I have been able to find folks who have moved right and flown cross country or move to different cities across the country that to run a campaign where they were not born and raised but ended up running really, really successful campaigns. So absolutely, although using your personal network can be super helpful in finding a good campaign manager. It never hurts to cast a wider net when you are doing your search.
Joe Fuld (34:11):
Yeah, I mean you want to make sure also that you don't self limit your search. Again, one of the things that we talked about in our previous episode on hiring and staffing is you really want to make sure that you're doing things like not limiting your campaign manager to college grads. You want somebody who really has real life experience. It might be that they ran a grocery store. It might be that they worked at a fast food restaurant. They might not have graduated college. That's okay. You want smart, hardworking folks.
Martín Diego Garcia (34:43):
Yeah. Especially for those down ballot races and particularly if you're running in a presidential or you're running and there's a top of the ticket race where most of that experienced talent may be going. You may need to think of outside the most obvious political spaces and think about what are ways to bring in folks who have a different perspective or life experience that will only sort of make your team and your campaign stronger because they may see things in a way that you as a candidate are not seeing them. That can benefit your campaign greatly, particularly as you're speaking to communities with within your district.
Joe Fuld (35:12):
Right, and you want to make sure that you interview people, multiple people for the job. Just don't make the assumption, Oh, we got one resume. This person is alive. We should hire them. A pulse is not a reason to hire a campaign manager, right? I get that sometimes we feel that way, that we have to solve the solution, solve this now, get a solution. Get someone on board now, but want to take a breath. I know every day feels like a journey, but you want to make sure that you're really picking the right person. This person is going to be with you day in, day out, so you want to make sure that you have a hiring process to help find the best fit and you want to make sure that you have other options in case your number one choice falls through. There are a lot of campaigns out there, a lot of people interviewing for multiple jobs. You might not be able to get the first person you think you're going to hire
Martín Diego Garcia (36:08):
And hopefully this is not the case, right, but you actually may hire that person and another job may come along or life happens right? In a family situation comes along where that person is no longer able to work on your campaign and therefore making sure that you're sort of continuing to keep in contact with those other folks who you had interviewed just in case is always a helpful tip. One thing that I really liked that Brandon shared was this idea of sort of knowing your, for yourself, your own hard lines and really practicing your values on the campaign trail. What are the things that you as a candidate, you as a campaign manager, are willing to push and what are those things that you really need to stay true to in order to make sure that you are sort of staying true to yourself, you're learning from your experiences and and really trying to make an impact out in the world.
Joe Fuld (36:52):
Yeah, I mean, listen, not every day is going to feel like the West Wing. Jon Bon Jovi is not going to be babysitting your kids. It's not going to happen. You want to make sure that you check in with yourself to make sure that you're staying true to who you are, to your values, and you're treating people the way you want to be treated in the world. So I think that's a wrap for this episode. So thanks everyone for listening. If you have questions or comments about hiring campaign manager, don't hesitate to reach out to us using old fashioned email or social media handles in the descriptions. So the next episode we have coming up is we'll be talking door knocking with our guest, Carmen Berkley. She's the Chief Strategy Officer of Dancing Hearts Consulting. Tune in to listen to her. Drop some killer knowledge on voter outreach.
Martín Diego Garcia (37:42):
Very excited for that one. But until next time, this is Martín Diego Garcia
Joe Fuld (37:46):
And Joe Fuld breaking down how to win a campaign.
Martín Diego Garcia (37:49):
How want to campaign is Joe Fuld, Martín Diego Garcia, Hope Rohrbach, Daniel Lam, Heidi Job and Elena Veatch. Music by Mike Pinto. Sound editing by Junto Media. Special thanks to the team at The Campaign Workshop. Please review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
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