When you hear the word “lobbyist,” what comes to mind? If it’s an old guy in an expensive suit strutting down the Cannon House Office Building with a cigar and a checkbook, then it’s time for you to meet Courtney Snowden, a “new-school” lobbyist. In this episode, Joe and Martín break down what lobbying is, why you might need a lobbyist, and how to integrate lobbying into your broader advocacy efforts. Joe chats with Courtney to dispel some common lobbying myths and peel back the curtain from what has traditionally been a very mysterious and storied profession.
For many progressives, the thought of hiring a lobbyist may have never even crossed the mind once. And it’s not a surprise. Lobbying has a stigma and its association with certain unscrupulous actors hasn’t done the industry any favors. That’s why Joe and Martín spend this episode shedding some light on what is often seen as a profession operating in the shadows. Learn what lobbyists do, how lobbyists can work with advocacy organizations, and whether you might need different lobbyists for different sides of the aisle. Also learn what and who are more important than any lobbyist ever will be. Tune in to hear from Courtney Snowden, a lobbyist who shakes up what you think of when you picture who a lobbyist is and what they do.
Resources
Lobby Visits for Nonprofits: Planning a Lobby Day
How Do I Kick Off My Legislative Advocacy Program?
I'm Just a Bill Song-Schoolhouse Rock
Connect with us!
If you have campaign questions or want to learn more, reach out to us using the contact information below.
Twitter: @cmpwrkshp
Instagram: @TheCampaignWorkshop
Email: marketing@thecampaignworkshop.com
Joe Fuld
Twitter: @joefuld
Instagram: @joefuld
Martín Diego Garcia
Twitter: @gmartindiego
Instagram: @gmartindiego
Presented by The Campaign Workshop
(Intro Music)
Martín Diego Garcia (00:07):
Hey folks, you're listening to How to Win an Advocacy Campaign, where you will get an insider's perspective that teaches you not only how to fight for what you believe in, but how to win. I'm Martín Diego Garcia.
Joe Fuld (00:17):
And I'm Joe Fuld, and you can find us @CMPWRKSHP on Twitter or @thecampaignworkshop on Instagram. Welcome and thanks for listening to Episode 11 of How to Win an Advocacy Campaign.
Martín Diego Garcia (00:32):
So on the last episode we spoke to Katie Belanger about what happens when advocacy goes wrong and how to stop it from going off the rails in the first place and what to do if it does. So make sure to take a listen to that episode.
Joe Fuld (00:42):
Yeah. And today, Martín, we'll dive into what it takes to plan and run an effective lobbying campaign as part of your advocacy strategy and how you can move legislators and decision makers to move your issue up in the hierarchy and get real results for your community. So Martín, what is lobbying?
Martín Diego Garcia (01:03):
So in the, in the basic form, right, like lobbying is talking to your legislators, right? It's talking to lawmakers, decision makers and their staff and specifically asking them to amend, to create, to vote for, or against a piece of legislation in which you are advocating on behalf of. Right. And so the reason that we do this is there are a million and one things on the mind of a legislator, right? And so you want to make sure that your issue, your topic, the piece in which you're advocating for has a voice to it. Right? And so in the list of bills, they are introducing or writing, or co-sponsoring that the one that you want them to be on is constantly at the forefront and you're providing your legislator information on that particular piece of legislation to let them know why is it important for them to vote the way you need them to and how that impacts their constituents really. Right. And so you want to be a voice for your issue. The way that it differs from other sort of tactics in the grassroots and grasstops space, whether it's digital communications, right, you're doing online petition gathering, right. Or you're doing direct actions, right. You're doing sit-ins or marches or rallies. Right. is it should work in concert with those things. But this is really when people talk about sort of the insider game, right? You're having direct conversation with these decision makers versus having sort of outside political public pressure, right. And, and, and public opinion, having weighing in. Both of those things are really critical, but the, but the lobbying is really on the inside of the city halls, the capitols, the state legislatures, right. To have those conversations directly with legislators. But Joe, as organizations are thinking about their lobbying programs, what do they need to be thinking about to start setting up those programs?
Joe Fuld (02:50):
Right. Well, I mean, as you said, you need to be thinking about your inside and your outside game. You need to be thinking about both. And you need to think about what are the bills that you're for or against. What are the bills you want to move forward? What are the bills that you want to prevent from being moved forward? Who are your opponents? What are the reasons for being opposed to their legislation? What are other state or national groups that are going to be working towards the same goal that could be a part of this coalition. And then you want to think about how can a good lobbyist help you with all this? What do you want to achieve by hiring a lobbyist? Where is this bill going to be going? Who are the people that are going to be making decisions? Are they appointed officials, are they elected officials? And then you really want to think about how it fits as a part of your overall program, a lobbyist in itself, isn't one program, it's one part of the overall lobbying and advocacy program. And so Martín, what are elements of a good lobbying program?
Martín Diego Garcia (03:52):
Definitely. Right. And this goes back to, and we may sound like a broken record, right, but using that totally message box to understand, right? Like what are all the different components of a messaging happening around this issue? What are your opponents saying versus what you're saying? And again, going back to power mapping to understand, right? Like what are the state groups, the national groups, the groups on your side and the groups on the other side, right. To figure out what all those things look like.
Joe Fuld (04:14):
And if you're interested in the Tully Message Box or interested in power mapping, you can check it out on our blog. You also can sign up for our training that we do a couple of times a year at tcwadvocacy.com, but a lot of resources that you can look at to understand these tools.
Martín Diego Garcia (04:31):
Definitely. But, but going back to what a good program looks like, right, is you should be really thinking about one, do you have a good lobbyist and a good lobbyist really should have their ear to the ground and understand what is happening on any, on the given issue that you're working on. Right? They should have a sense of what's the history, what legislation has been co-sponsored created, pushed in the past, right? Why did it pass? Why did it fail who's on which side of this issue, right? Or how it connects directly personally with those legislators, but that should work in conjunction again with your other lobbying efforts, right? You may be doing a lobby day with your members, your community organizers, your constituents of that particular legislator. Those should work hand in hand with each other. Right. but you should also position your in your issue in a positive way and as a priority for those legislators. Right. And that's going to differ depending on who you're talking to. Right. So one legislator, the reason they may be prioritizing their, this issue may be due to the way that it impacts rural areas, right. Versus another legislator who lives in a downtown area, who, or who, or who represents a more urban area. Why does this issue impact their constituents? Right. So think about those pieces of it, as far as you're positioning your your issue.
Joe Fuld (05:44):
Yeah. And again, like a lobbyist is really going to help you think about that, think about how that issue is prioritized. And they'll have an understanding on the path to victory for an issue likely more than you will, and they'll understand what committee is going through, or is this something that is an executive order? What is the path for victory on this issue? Whether it's passing something or stopping something.
Martín Diego Garcia (06:12):
Yeah. And these are all going to begin with understanding the process, right? What is the, how does the bill become a law? Right. And understanding what are the different inflection points of like, dude, you have the votes in a committee to, to either get it onto the floor vote or to kill it in committee. Right. Versus do you not have it on committee? And you really need to work on the larger sort of legislature, the legislative body in general, when it comes to a floor vote to figure that out. Right? So understanding the process and where you have your people in order to get them to vote your way or vote against a particular piece of legislation is going to be really, really helpful. And I think that goes to building your coalition and making sure your coalition agrees on the messaging, the talking points, how you're pushing it, who you're targeting all of those different assets and pieces before jumping into hiring the particular lobbyists, but also understanding what your lobby program is going to look like. So as we talk about hiring a particular lobbyist, Joe, who should an organization choose as their lobbyists, what really qualifies a person to be a lobbyist?
Joe Fuld (07:10):
So, the first thing is your, I'll get to the choosing first, and then I can talk about who these lobbyists are and qualifications, but first is you want to really think out what is the issue you're lobbying on? What is the body you're lobbying? Are these Republican elected officials are these Democratic elected officials? You want to think about that? Different lobbyists have different connections. They also have a understanding of policy of one specific type of policy, maybe one specific committee on the Hill. Some lobbyists specialize very much in tax policy or on a specific issue. So you want to think about that. You also want to think about the reputation of these lobbyists. Are they good at giving advice? Are they known as being an old school lobbyist versus a new school lobbyist that can work with a variety of sort of complex coalitions and you want to look at their past clients and what conflicts may be going on. Right. Do they have, if you're doing some work around the public option for health care, if they represent large healthcare companies, it might be a conflict for them to work for you. So you really want to think about that and you really want to understand where the lobbyist comes from. Are they someone who has been like, let's say, you're lobbying a specific state, have they worked in a state legislature? Do they understand the leadership? Do they know the specific committee chairs that you're trying to engage with? Do they have a good relationship with them? They might be supremely qualified, but the committee chair of this, where this piece of legislation is going may hate this lobbyist, probably not a good lobbyist to hire. So you really want understand the reputation and understand the relationships and asked very specific questions around it. Again, you want to know the conflicts, and then you also want to think about budget. If this lobbyist costs a ton of money and you don't have money, you might not be able to hire them. The reason why I say might not is you may have a coalition partner that has this person on retainer or has a deal with them. So you want to think about, are you hiring them? Is the coalition hiring them? And is it the right fit? As far as who's qualified to be a lobbyist? A lot of times it is people who've been previous staffers or have an expertise in a specific issue. Those are usually the people you're looking for around lobbying. And remember there are rules about lobbyists, you know, they need to be registered with the state or the city or the federal government. So make sure they're registered and ask for references, like in anything else you want to ask for references of groups who worked on an issue that passed or groups that worked on issue that didn't pass, but did they have a good relationship with a lobbyist, ask for those references? It's super important.
Martín Diego Garcia (10:01):
Yeah, totally. These are helpful. Again, it goes back to building those relationships right. And under, and doing that research. And we're really excited to hear from Courtney Snowden, who has done a good bit of this who will help walk us through what it takes to create a really great lobbying program hopefully for you and your organization. So we will be right back.
(Music)
Joe Fuld (10:33):
And we're back. Courtney Snowden is the founder and principal lobbyists of Blueprint Strategies, a DC-based lobbying firm. Prior to that, she was an in-house lobbyist, the deputy mayor for greater economic opportunity, was a candidate for the Washington DC council, a Principal at the Raben Group. She lobbied for clients such as Google, MasterCard, National Education Association, National Urban League. She was also a senior lobbyist for the national PTA, Chair of the National Coalition for Public Education, and the national policy manager for the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network. Also, she is the founder of Black Girl Magic, the Peloton Edition, Courtney, welcome to the show.
Courtney Snowden (11:16):
Oh, Joe, you make me sound so great. Thank you so, so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here with you.
Joe Fuld (11:23):
You and I have been friends for a crazy long time and it is, I am super excited to have you on the program. You and I have done training all across the country together for the Gay and Lesbian Victory Fund and Victory Institute. We've it's, it's just great to have you talking about the topic of lobbying.
Courtney Snowden (11:43):
Oh, it's one of my favorite things to talk about. Definitely one of my favorite things to do and you know, w I feel like we've known each other a hundred years. You see me through so many different iterations of my career and personal life. So it's, you know where some bodies are buried, so we gotta be careful how this conversation goes.
Joe Fuld (11:59):
Well, I mean, I also think like the reason to have you on the program, there's a lot to learn from, you have seen sort of this, this issue you've seen lobbying from many different sides, and I think it's really important for our audience to understand it. So start first with, what do you think are three misconceptions about lobbying.
Courtney Snowden (12:20):
Oh, I feel like there's so many misconceptions about lobbying. If people actually know what it is at all, right. But most people think that only corporations have lobbyists that they're sitting in sort of smoke filld back rooms with big glasses of whiskey doing sort of things that are just untoward to I guess, undermine the American people or harm the American people or somehow pass laws that are only in the interest of business. And then I think the other big misconception, which is sort of implied in some of the other stuff I said, is that lobbying is a bad thing, that there's something unethical or wrong about it. And I think those things, you know, even for a long time, when I would tell people what I did for a living and I'd say, Oh, I'm a lobbyist. And I do it with great pride. They would turn their nose up or have a really, really strong reaction to what is, I think, a very noble profession.
Joe Fuld (13:16):
So all right. So first let's start with the big obvious question. What does a lobbyist do?
Courtney Snowden (13:21):
Yeah, it's the right question. So all a lobbyist does, is advocate on behalf of a set of issues or people before elected officials who have an ability to change policy and laws or administration officials like in the White House or at the mayoral level, or for governor. So literally all they are people who organize information, share information with elected officials and urge them to make policy change in one direction or another. So you, when you read my bio, you mentioned, I lobby for the national PTA. I remember telling a friend that, the national PTA has lobbyists? Of course they have lobbyists. They care deeply about education policy. They want to see education policy positively impacted with with parents, teachers, and students in mind. And so they work every day to come up with a policy agenda and to move policy throughout Congress and in state houses and state senates across the country to make sure that kids have access to high quality education, who can argue with that?
Joe Fuld (14:22):
Yeah, but I mean, you, you mentioned right, you started out by when, when I asked like three misconceptions, there's that negative stigma that often people have about lobbyists. Why do you think that exists?
Courtney Snowden (14:34):
Two words, Jack Abramoff. I think, you know, here's the reality, right? Jack Abramoff was not a lobbyist. He was a criminal. And that's the real fundamental issue when you hear negative stories about lobbyists. So when you watch House of Cards and see, well, all the things that you see on House of Cards, right? The reality is those folks are not real lobbyists. Those are people who are doing really unethical, untoward things that are illegal. Sometimes in my experience, a lobbyist literally works with a group of people who have an interest. Sometimes they're non-profits, sometimes it's a group of moms. Sometimes it's a corporation, but lobbyists are critical to making sure that the legislative process can happen effectively. They become expert in an issue and usually are best and most well-positioned to explain the issue and the impact of legislation as it moves through Congress, into law.
Joe Fuld (15:25):
This podcast is about advocacy campaigns. And so what role do lobbyists play in an advocacy campaign?
Courtney Snowden (15:33):
A really important one, I would say, but not the most important actually. So this is the thing, if I was to say I was an expert in anything, it would be that I'm expert in moving issue campaigns that is taking an issue and working with an entire group of people, advocates, coalitions, to see positive change on the legislative front. So an example of that was my work with the National Coalition for Public Education. So the national coalition focused on ensuring that that laws are not passed to create publicly funded private school vouchers. Okay. People may have different views about that, but the fact is it was a group of organizations that came together to make sure that it's Congress thought about education policy as they moved large education bills, like the Elementary and Secondary Education Act, that it did not include provisions that allow for publicly funded private school vouchers. Well, the lobbyist is the one who distills the information who talks to the members of Congress and staff, who talks to the, to the officials in the White House or in the Department of Education. They're the people who help organize the campaign. But the fact is the most critical part of any issue or advocacy campaign are actually the people who are most impacted by the problem who get deeply engaged in the fight. So there's no lobbyist who is more important than a voter in a congressional district. There is no phone call that I can make that is more important than a constituent who lives in a congressional district or in a state where we're trying to influence a member of Congress. So the lobbyists play a critical role, but they're just one cog in the wheel to get legislation passed and signed into law.
Joe Fuld (17:05):
Talk about the strategic role that a lobbyist plays.
Courtney Snowden (17:10):
Yeah, so what a lobbyist is really expert in besides the set of issues that they work on is the process by which laws get made. So everyone remembers "I'm only a bill." The song is great as a framework, but that's not actually how it works right there. Things obviously the House passes a bill, the Senate passes a bill, but before they get to that, there is a committee hearing in the committee of jurisdiction. There is and, and it even starts before that with an idea about a piece of legislation. So let's just say if my, my three-year-old was writing legislation, it would be free candy every Friday from 12 to six. Right? Okay. So he would come up with an idea. He would find group of people who believe as he does that it should happen. He would find a member of Congress and a member of the Senate. And hopefully he'd find to have a bipartisan bill Senate, a Senate, Republican a Senate Democrat, a House Republican, a House Democrat, with some level of engagement on the committee of jurisdiction. Hopefully they're on the committee of jurisdiction and he would work with them and the legislative council in the House and the Senate to pass, to draft a bill, to introduce that bill and to move it through the committee process, the committee members would Mark it up or, or amend the bill to make changes to it. So maybe it's not free candy from 12 to six, but it's free candy from nine to four, right? Because that's just a better time and fits with the I don't know why, but maybe that's what
Joe Fuld (18:32):
Hopefully it's free candy from maybe three to five, a two-hour block.
Courtney Snowden (18:40):
But my three-year-old is doing this.
Joe Fuld (18:40):
Well this is going to be the lobbying fight, right? He's going to want it early. I'm going to want later in the day,
Courtney Snowden (18:47):
Actual PTA would say, only an hour. And then the American Dental Association might get involved and say less candy or only Hershey's kisses because they're not so bad after you get your teeth cleaned. Right. But everyone, this, this is actually a really good example.
Joe Fuld (18:58):
Yeah, this is the process, right?
Courtney Snowden (19:01):
Everybody has an interest in the bill and then they weigh in with their elected officials and, and then it moves to the floor and you can amend on the floor of the House and the Senate. And then if it works and you have a House bill that passes and a Senate bill that passes, then it gets conferenced. They create one bill and that's the bill that gets that passes and then goes to the president. But there are a lot of pieces in between and the more nuanced stuff, which is why having a lobbyist is really important is that, there are some bills, lots of bills get introduced every year. Thousands of bills get introduced in Congress or in state houses every year or in city councils, even too but only a handful actually pass and become law. And of those, there are key must pass bills. Defense reauthorization has to get passed. Appropriations, even if it's an omnibus bill where they put all of the funding bills together and pass them as one big bill that has to pass a continuing resolution to continue to fund the government, has to pass highway bill has to pass. And so when their bills that have to pass, that is when lobbyists do their real work, because that's when you have an opportunity to put as many things in one of these bigger bills as possible, so that you can either take care of your clients or your interests.
Joe Fuld (20:08):
Sometimes small organizations can't afford a professional lobbyists or can't afford one on their own. Is that something where they partner as a coalition and hire a lobbyist? Is it, they work with an organization that might have an in-house lobbyist? What are ways that folks figure that out?
Courtney Snowden (20:25):
Yeah, I think all of that is right. So sometimes one, I think firms, particularly many firms particularly firms in DC have some level of pro bono capacity. And so if you're a smaller organization or you have an idea and you think it's a good one, you could approach one of those firms like Blueprint and, and do that work and work with and have them work with you on that. The other thing is to think about a larger coalition that might care deeply about the issues. One, it's always better to work in coalition, but two, if people pool their resources, if organizations pool their resources, they can often get really great lobbyists to do that work for them. But the other thing is there are a lot of organic, there's no new idea under the sun. We know that, right. And so there's probably somebody already working on an idea or a set of ideas that people in the States or across the country are also thinking about. And so I guarantee you that there's an organization in Washington that cares about it.
Joe Fuld (21:20):
Yeah. And so where then do constituent stories come into play sort of those impactful constituent stories in moving those folks to action or moving other legislators to action.
Courtney Snowden (21:33):
There's absolutely nothing more valuable than constituents, real constituents, real constituents stories and real constituent engagement. I will tell you that a handwritten letter to a member of Congress is worth almost as much as a check, frankly, it's probably worth more than a check in some cases. There's no, and this is one, just back to this misconception question, there's no check. I can write to an elected official that is going to change, that is going to have them act outside of the best interest of their constituents. The constituents are the ones who vote for them. They need them. Many members of Congress, particularly the house, but I'm sure on the Senate side to read some of the handwritten notes that come in from constituents, they're all cataloged, they're all logged, but the ones that are handwritten that someone actually took the time to put a stamp on that weren't emailed go a long way to communicating something to members of Congress. Like I said, there's nothing more important to elected officials than a voter, because ultimately that's going to help keep them in their job. And so the stories of, of their constituents engagement directly from their constituents, it's going to be critical. And it's why you will see corporations and big nonprofits and other membership-based organizations organize their consumers and their members to be the ones to communicate. So often you'll see nonprofits like NEA or AFT the unions, or national PTA or the Parkinson's Foundation. They'll have a lobby day on Capitol Hill and in state houses around the country. They will take constituents in to the offices of the elected officials to sit and talk to them about the policy agenda and the policy priorities. What that should tell you and what I know for sure is that means the lobbyist voice, the paid lobbyist voice is actually one of the least important voices in that context, the actual constituents, the actual vote, or the person who lives in the district is the person that matters the most. And so those stories will be used by the elected officials on their respective floors when they're, when they are participating in committee hearings and we'll use them for questioning. And sometimes they even invite their constituents to testify on a given issue. So I guess the point is the headline, what I'm trying to drive home is that I guarantee it there's nothing more important than a constituent.
Joe Fuld (23:39):
All right. Well, a couple more questions on sort of lobbyists and the type of lobbyist you hire, right? Republican versus Democratic lobbyists. How do you make that decision, Courtney?
Courtney Snowden (23:51):
You got to play on both sides of the aisle and in any elected body. You know, in Congress, you have to have Republicans talking to Republicans and Democrats talking to Democrats. And then there are people who can work both sides of the aisle. And I have, but most people usually work their side. And so you want to make sure that if you are in a state that has a bipartisan legislature, which most States do that you have someone who can communicate with both sides. It's, it's critically important.
Joe Fuld (24:22):
What do you do to get the most out of a lobbyist, right? You're hiring a lobbyist. How do you make sure you utilize, what would be tips for best utilization of a lobbyist,
Courtney Snowden (24:35):
One it's critical to know what you want. So too often clients will come to me and they will have an idea, but they're not exactly sure what they want. And so we'll spend some time getting as crystal clear about the goal as, as humanly possible. So for example, when I worked for the gay lesbian and straight education network, one thing we thought about was amending major civil rights law to achieve to achieve anti-discrimination in schools. There were a bunch of people who had major concerns of us open up title six, or title seven. And so we've figured out that that probably wasn't the best course of action or or Title IX. That's not the best course of action. So what we did was we focused on putting language in the elementary and secondary education act which really helped to create non-discrimination language. And it also created a pot of money for schools to be able to access to effectively educate and train their staff and young people about why about anti-discrimination as it relates to the LGBTQ community. Now, when we initially started to think about that problem, we were thinking about wholesale civil rights legislation. And after some work conversation and strategy, we realized there was a better and easier way to get the same thing achieved. And so one getting crystal clear about what you want to achieve and what success looks like. And then two listening to your lobbyists to help you get to what the best solution is, is really critical. Third. And I think this is really important and we've talked a lot about constituent engagement, but really knowing what your members or the people that you represent care deeply about as an organization, as an individual, all of the people who are impacted by the issue knowing what they care about and knowing how to organize them and figuring out what apparatus is you need, or infrastructure you need to be able to, to coordinate their communication is a critical piece and something that lobbyists can help you do, but you have to know that you need that. Um and then finally, I think the most important thing that a lobbyist can do is help you understand the process and how it actually works and how to accomplish whatever your legislative goal is. Maybe it's a regulatory solution that can be changed through just rewriting an agency rewriting its regs or regulations. Maybe it's something that has to go through Congress. Maybe it's something that already exists in some unclear language, in an appropriations bill that you can act that you can redirect spending to a thing that is a priority for you, but your lobbyist is going to be the person to help you distill some of that. And so knowing what you want being crystal clear about what tools you already have, and then listening to your lobbyist about what other tools you might need to build, I think are the, th those are the best ways to get exactly what you want.
Joe Fuld (27:22):
So, all right. Tips on hiring a lobbyist.
Courtney Snowden (27:25):
Hire me. No, I'm kidding.
Joe Fuld (27:27):
Ok, well, but I mean like, can you negotiate on price? What are questions you ask beforehand? Right. Give us like some quick tips on that.
Courtney Snowden (27:37):
Yes, you can always negotiate on price. Smaller firms are typically a little bit more nimble on price, like when hiring any consultant and I'm sure Joe has talked about this on previous podcasts. You want to know who you are getting among the firm. So lots of firms have big shiny names with big well-known names on them. And then you find out two or three months into the relationship that you're actually working with the junior associate, who's been off the Hill for a year. So you want to make sure you know exactly who you're getting and who's going to be doing, doing the work. You want to understand what types of clients they take and how much those clients pay. So there are some firms who only do corporate and don't take retainers less than $30,000 a month. And then there's some firms who work only with nonprofits or smaller nonprofits and take $5,000 a month retainers. Um but there's a big range in what people make and how much people get paid for this. But you want to know that you're, you're fitting within the sweet spot of your budget and that these are companies or lobbying firms that are effectively able to work around a certain dollar amount. If you're paying $5,000 a month, you probably shouldn't go to a firm that charges $60,000 a month for most of their clients. It's not going to be a good match. The other thing that I would really be thoughtful about is you want to make sure that you have a firm and firm leaders and professionals that you work with, who are aligned with your values, right? You want people who share your view of the world and, and share your passion for your particular legislative issue. I am the best lobbyist when I'm working on issues that I care deeply about. Uh and I think that's true for most really good lobbyists. And so making sure that you're working with people who share your, your perspective is important. The other thing, and I think this is a really important one. Can I say this about Washington? There are a lot of people who lobby in Washington. And there are a lot of people who think they're really, really great lobbyists. And so it's also really important to check some references and talk to some people and get a good sense of what other people think about them. And that may mean that you talk to your elected officials that may mean you talk to a handful of people, but you definitely want to get references. And you definitely want to understand how people view your lobbyists. Because if lobbying, as I said before, is about relationship building you to make sure you're working with someone who's respected and liked.
Joe Fuld (29:43):
Yeah. Well, Courtney, thanks so much for taking the time to chat with us, to find out more about, you know, what Courtney's up to and about Blueprint Strategies. You can check out links in the show notes also, you know, happy to put in there, the Black Girl Magic: Peloton edition, and maybe some people can ride with you.
Courtney Snowden (30:07):
I'd love that!
Joe Fuld (30:07):
We really appreciate your time.
Courtney Snowden (30:09):
Thanks, Joe.
Joe Fuld (30:09):
Thank you, Courtney. We'll be right back
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Martín Diego Garcia (30:26):
And we're back always great hearing Courtney's brilliance and insights. And I think she mentioned a lot of really great things that you should be considering as you're thinking about building out your lobbying program for your advocacy efforts. Right. And so I think the first one, right. Knowing what success looks like, really defining what victory looked like looks like and your primary goal versus your secondary goal, right? How can you continually be building to the next, the next campaign to the next effort? Even whether this legislation passes or fails, right. Think about old school versus new school tactics, right. We have now transitioned into doing virtual lobbying. Right. And what does that look like when you can't be with inside your legislator's office and talking to them face to face giving those personal stories, giving the reasons why they should vote one way or another and understanding, right, how do you yes, continue to build those relationships, right? That old school game of who to, who, who do you know, right. Versus a lot of these new school tactics in which we can start implementing and legislators are starting to train themselves on how to do in a virtual meet and greets and, and, and lobbying efforts that way too, as well. So understanding how are they doing it? How do you schedule a meeting with them now, et cetera. You also want to make sure that you're including your lobbyists as part of your advocacy campaign planning, right? The more that they know and the more clear and direction that you can give your lobbyists, it's likely the better outcome you're going to get from them, whether just sort of giving them carte blanche, sort of jurisdiction over what they think is best versus what you know is best having them part of, as part of your campaign writing process is really going to make sure that both of you are on the same page there. And then I think lastly, right, like thinking about who are these legislative targets, who are the specific individuals, legislators that you need to be communicating to, to either be a, be a champion for your issue and, or right, like get, because we don't know where they stand. They're neutral. They're a, they're a newly elected official. Right. Get them on your side from the beginning. Right. So think about how do you be really specific on who those legislative targets are.
Joe Fuld (32:30):
Yeah. And, and again, don't forget to have a separate budget for lobbying. This can be expensive, right? So you want to think about that. And then going back to this targeting specifically, know who the targets really are and do you have enough targets or too many targets, right. Sometimes clients come to us and they're like, yeah, we want to target 25 legislators. You may not have the budget for that. So really working with your lobbyists to narrow down the targets that you really need, is it three members on one committee? Is it leadership understanding that? And really, again, as Martín said, making sure they're a part of the campaign planning process to figure those things out. Then you want to think about tips for hiring a good lobbyist. Is your lobbyist willing to put in the time to be a player in your coalition and make strategic decisions, you know, beyond just meeting with lawmakers, right? You also want to think about how they're going to work with the assets you have. If you are hiring an old-school lobbyist that doesn't really like to do patch through calling, and doesn't like to have advocates reaching out to legislators on their own, it might not be the right fit for you. Whereas if you hire sort of a new school lobbyist, that is like, yes, I want patch through calls. I want like virtual petition signups. I want to know who these people are. And then I want to use them as advocates and do virtual fly-ins and lobby days. It might be the right lobbyist for you. So it depends, but you need to think about that.
Martín Diego Garcia (34:06):
Yeah, definitely. Right. And I think lastly, to debunk, some of the biggest myths around lobbying and lobbyists, right, is the first one is that anybody can be a lobbyist, which is absolutely not true, right? Yes. Relationships are key, but again, your lobbyists should understand the process. They should understand and have a relationship, a good relationship, right, with the legislative targets whom you all are focusing your efforts on, right. They should have a good sense of your issue and how to be able to talk about it in a way that positions you all in a positive light and gets your issue to be a priority, right? So not everybody can do that. And so being really clear with your lobbyists is going to be really critical. The other two, I think, are lobbyists are unethical or that lobbyists don't really do anything, right? They're just these, these people who walk around the Capitol in nice suits and get a lot of money, but they don't really do anything. That's not true. Right. A lot of these folks have spent years in city halls in in state capitols at the US Capitol, right? Understanding all of the intricacies that happen behind the curtain. And that knowledge and insight is really, really critical. And, and particularly when you're planning your lobbying efforts. And so don't assume that every lobbyist is unethical, right. There are some really great, great lobbyists out there who can, who can really help you get in with some legislators who you may not even have relationships with. Right. and lobbyists only don't do anything if you don't give them anything to do. Right. So the clearer you are, the more direction and guidance you can give them the better lobbyist you're going to get. And that's a wrap for this episode and the last one of season two. So I really hope you enjoyed your time with us.
Joe Fuld (35:42):
Can't be over yet. Martine. No, no. Don't let it happen. Right. So again, stay tuned for bonus episodes and for info about season three.
Martín Diego Garcia (35:53):
Can't wait.
Joe Fuld (35:53):
Yeah. Super excited. Oh, it's going to be great. Martín, yeah thanks. But we're going to have fun as always, we have loved doing this and we want to thank again, all the amazing guests that have been on this season and we want to thank you the listeners for reaching out. It's been amazing.
Martín Diego Garcia (36:10):
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening. If you have any other specific questions on any of the episodes that you listened to always feel free to contact us using our social media handles or the email address provided in the description. But until next time, this is Martín Diego Garcia.
Joe Fuld (36:25):
And Joe Fuld breaking down how to win an advocacy campaign.
Martín Diego Garcia (36:29):
How to Win an Advocacy Campaign is Joe Fuld, Martín Diego Garcia, Hope Rohrbach, Daniel Lam, Heidi Job, and Elena Veatch. Music by Mike Pinto. Sound editing by the Global Startup Movement. Special thanks to the team at The Campaign Workshop. Remember to review like, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
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